Timaeus
by
Plato
Timaeus
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Timaeus by Plato.
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[2] PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates, Critias, Timaeus, Hermocrates.
[3]
[4]
[5] SOCRATES: One, two, three; but where, my dear Timaeus, is the fourth of
[6] those who were yesterday my guests and are to be my entertainers to-day?
[7]
[8] TIMAEUS: He has been taken ill, Socrates; for he would not willingly have
[9] been absent from this gathering.
[10]
[11] SOCRATES: Then, if he is not coming, you and the two others must supply
[12] his place.
[13]
[14] TIMAEUS: Certainly, and we will do all that we can; having been handsomely
[15] entertained by you yesterday, those of us who remain should be only too
[16] glad to return your hospitality.
[17]
[18] SOCRATES: Do you remember what were the points of which I required you to
[19] speak?
[20]
[21] TIMAEUS: We remember some of them, and you will be here to remind us of
[22] anything which we have forgotten: or rather, if we are not troubling you,
[23] will you briefly recapitulate the whole, and then the particulars will be
[24] more firmly fixed in our memories?
[25]
[26] SOCRATES: To be sure I will: the chief theme of my yesterday's discourse
[27] was the State--how constituted and of what citizens composed it would seem
[28] likely to be most perfect.
[29]
[30] TIMAEUS: Yes, Socrates; and what you said of it was very much to our mind.
[31]
[32] SOCRATES: Did we not begin by separating the husbandmen and the artisans
[33] from the class of defenders of the State?
[34]
[35] TIMAEUS: Yes.
[36]
[37] SOCRATES: And when we had given to each one that single employment and
[38] particular art which was suited to his nature, we spoke of those who were
[39] intended to be our warriors, and said that they were to be guardians of the
[40] city against attacks from within as well as from without, and to have no
[41] other employment; they were to be merciful in judging their subjects, of
[42] whom they were by nature friends, but fierce to their enemies, when they
[43] came across them in battle.
[44]
[45] TIMAEUS: Exactly.
[46]
[47] SOCRATES: We said, if I am not mistaken, that the guardians should be
[48] gifted with a temperament in a high degree both passionate and
[49] philosophical; and that then they would be as they ought to be, gentle to
[50] their friends and fierce with their enemies.
[51]
[52] TIMAEUS: Certainly.
[53]
[54] SOCRATES: And what did we say of their education? Were they not to be
[55] trained in gymnastic, and music, and all other sorts of knowledge which
[56] were proper for them?
[57]
[58] TIMAEUS: Very true.
[59]
[60] SOCRATES: And being thus trained they were not to consider gold or silver
[61] or anything else to be their own private property; they were to be like
[62] hired troops, receiving pay for keeping guard from those who were protected
[63] by them--the pay was to be no more than would suffice for men of simple
[64] life; and they were to spend in common, and to live together in the
[65] continual practice of virtue, which was to be their sole pursuit.
[66]
[67] TIMAEUS: That was also said.
[68]
[69] SOCRATES: Neither did we forget the women; of whom we declared, that their
[70] natures should be assimilated and brought into harmony with those of the
[71] men, and that common pursuits should be assigned to them both in time of
[72] war and in their ordinary life.
[73]
[74] TIMAEUS: That, again, was as you say.
[75]
[76] SOCRATES: And what about the procreation of children? Or rather was not
[77] the proposal too singular to be forgotten? for all wives and children were
[78] to be in common, to the intent that no one should ever know his own child,
[79] but they were to imagine that they were all one family; those who were
[80] within a suitable limit of age were to be brothers and sisters, those who
[81] were of an elder generation parents and grandparents, and those of a
[82] younger, children and grandchildren.
[83]
[84] TIMAEUS: Yes, and the proposal is easy to remember, as you say.
[85]
[86] SOCRATES: And do you also remember how, with a view of securing as far as
[87] we could the best breed, we said that the chief magistrates, male and
[88] female, should contrive secretly, by the use of certain lots, so to arrange
[89] the nuptial meeting, that the bad of either sex and the good of either sex
[90] might pair with their like; and there was to be no quarrelling on this
[91] account, for they would imagine that the union was a mere accident, and was
[92] to be attributed to the lot?
[93]
[94] TIMAEUS: I remember.
[95]
[96] SOCRATES: And you remember how we said that the children of the good
[97] parents were to be educated, and the children of the bad secretly dispersed
[98] among the inferior citizens; and while they were all growing up the rulers
[99] were to be on the look-out, and to bring up from below in their turn those
[100] who were worthy, and those among themselves who were unworthy were to take
[101] the places of those who came up?
[102]
[103] TIMAEUS: True.
[104]
[105] SOCRATES: Then have I now given you all the heads of our yesterday's
[106] discussion? Or is there anything more, my dear Timaeus, which has been
[107] omitted?
[108]
[109] TIMAEUS: Nothing, Socrates; it was just as you have said.
[110]
[111] SOCRATES: I should like, before proceeding further, to tell you how I feel
[112] about the State which we have described. I might compare myself to a
[113] person who, on beholding beautiful animals either created by the painter's
[114] art, or, better still, alive but at rest, is seized with a desire of seeing
[115] them in motion or engaged in some struggle or conflict to which their forms
[116] appear suited; this is my feeling about the State which we have been
[117] describing. There are conflicts which all cities undergo, and I should
[118] like to hear some one tell of our own city carrying on a struggle against
[119] her neighbours, and how she went out to war in a becoming manner, and when
[120] at war showed by the greatness of her actions and the magnanimity of her
[121] words in dealing with other cities a result worthy of her training and
[122] education. Now I, Critias and Hermocrates, am conscious that I myself
[123] should never be able to celebrate the city and her citizens in a befitting
[124] manner, and I am not surprised at my own incapacity; to me the wonder is
[125] rather that the poets present as well as past are no better--not that I
[126] mean to depreciate them; but every one can see that they are a tribe of
[127] imitators, and will imitate best and most easily the life in which they
[128] have been brought up; while that which is beyond the range of a man's
[129] education he finds hard to carry out in action, and still harder adequately
[130] to represent in language. I am aware that the Sophists have plenty of
[131] brave words and fair conceits, but I am afraid that being only wanderers
[132] from one city to another, and having never had habitations of their own,
[133] they may fail in their conception of philosophers and statesmen, and may
[134] not know what they do and say in time of war, when they are fighting or
[135] holding parley with their enemies. And thus people of your class are the
[136] only ones remaining who are fitted by nature and education to take part at
[137] once both in politics and philosophy. Here is Timaeus, of Locris in Italy,
[138] a city which has admirable laws, and who is himself in wealth and rank the
[139] equal of any of his fellow-citizens; he has held the most important and
[140] honourable offices in his own state, and, as I believe, has scaled the
[141] heights of all philosophy; and here is Critias, whom every Athenian knows
[142] to be no novice in the matters of which we are speaking; and as to
[143] Hermocrates, I am assured by many witnesses that his genius and education
[144] qualify him to take part in any speculation of the kind. And therefore
[145] yesterday when I saw that you wanted me to describe the formation of the
[146] State, I readily assented, being very well aware, that, if you only would,
[147] none were better qualified to carry the discussion further, and that when
[148] you had engaged our city in a suitable war, you of all men living could
[149] best exhibit her playing a fitting part. When I had completed my task, I
[150] in return imposed this other task upon you. You conferred together and
[151] agreed to entertain me to-day, as I had entertained you, with a feast of
[152] discourse. Here am I in festive array, and no man can be more ready for
[153] the promised banquet.
[154]
[155] HERMOCRATES: And we too, Socrates, as Timaeus says, will not be wanting in
[156] enthusiasm; and there is no excuse for not complying with your request. As
[157] soon as we arrived yesterday at the guest-chamber of Critias, with whom we
[158] are staying, or rather on our way thither, we talked the matter over, and
[159] he told us an ancient tradition, which I wish, Critias, that you would
[160] repeat to Socrates, so that he may help us to judge whether it will satisfy
[161] his requirements or not.
[162]
[163] CRITIAS: I will, if Timaeus, who is our other partner, approves.
[164]
[165] TIMAEUS: I quite approve.
[166]
[167] CRITIAS: Then listen, Socrates, to a tale which, though strange, is
[168] certainly true, having been attested by Solon, who was the wisest of the
[169] seven sages. He was a relative and a dear friend of my great-grandfather,
[170] Dropides, as he himself says in many passages of his poems; and he told the
[171] story to Critias, my grandfather, who remembered and repeated it to us.
[172] There were of old, he said, great and marvellous actions of the Athenian
[173] city, which have passed into oblivion through lapse of time and the
[174] destruction of mankind, and one in particular, greater than all the rest.
[175] This we will now rehearse. It will be a fitting monument of our gratitude
[176] to you, and a hymn of praise true and worthy of the goddess, on this her
[177] day of festival.
[178]
[179] SOCRATES: Very good. And what is this ancient famous action of the
[180] Athenians, which Critias declared, on the authority of Solon, to be not a
[181] mere legend, but an actual fact?
[182]
[183] CRITIAS: I will tell an old-world story which I heard from an aged man;
[184] for Critias, at the time of telling it, was, as he said, nearly ninety
[185] years of age, and I was about ten. Now the day was that day of the
[186] Apaturia which is called the Registration of Youth, at which, according to
[187] custom, our parents gave prizes for recitations, and the poems of several
[188] poets were recited by us boys, and many of us sang the poems of Solon,
[189] which at that time had not gone out of fashion. One of our tribe, either
[190] because he thought so or to please Critias, said that in his judgment Solon
[191] was not only the wisest of men, but also the noblest of poets. The old
[192] man, as I very well remember, brightened up at hearing this and said,
[193] smiling: Yes, Amynander, if Solon had only, like other poets, made poetry
[194] the business of his life, and had completed the tale which he brought with
[195] him from Egypt, and had not been compelled, by reason of the factions and
[196] troubles which he found stirring in his own country when he came home, to
[197] attend to other matters, in my opinion he would have been as famous as
[198] Homer or Hesiod, or any poet.
[199]
[200] And what was the tale about, Critias? said Amynander.
[201]
[202] About the greatest action which the Athenians ever did, and which ought to
[203] have been the most famous, but, through the lapse of time and the
[204] destruction of the actors, it has not come down to us.
[205]
[206] Tell us, said the other, the whole story, and how and from whom Solon heard
[207] this veritable tradition.
[208]
[209] He replied:--In the Egyptian Delta, at the head of which the river Nile
[210] divides, there is a certain district which is called the district of Sais,
[211] and the great city of the district is also called Sais, and is the city
[212] from which King Amasis came. The citizens have a deity for their
[213] foundress; she is called in the Egyptian tongue Neith, and is asserted by
[214] them to be the same whom the Hellenes call Athene; they are great lovers of
[215] the Athenians, and say that they are in some way related to them. To this
[216] city came Solon, and was received there with great honour; he asked the
[217] priests who were most skilful in such matters, about antiquity, and made
[218] the discovery that neither he nor any other Hellene knew anything worth
[219] mentioning about the times of old. On one occasion, wishing to draw them
[220] on to speak of antiquity, he began to tell about the most ancient things in
[221] our part of the world--about Phoroneus, who is called 'the first man,' and
[222] about Niobe; and after the Deluge, of the survival of Deucalion and Pyrrha;
[223] and he traced the genealogy of their descendants, and reckoning up the
[224] dates, tried to compute how many years ago the events of which he was
[225] speaking happened. Thereupon one of the priests, who was of a very great
[226] age, said: O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children,
[227] and there is not an old man among you. Solon in return asked him what he
[228] meant. I mean to say, he replied, that in mind you are all young; there is
[229] no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science
[230] which is hoary with age. And I will tell you why. There have been, and
[231] will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the
[232] greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and
[233] other lesser ones by innumerable other causes. There is a story, which
[234] even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon, the son of Helios,
[235] having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to
[236] drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth,
[237] and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a
[238] myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the
[239] heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the
[240] earth, which recurs after long intervals; at such times those who live upon
[241] the mountains and in dry and lofty places are more liable to destruction
[242] than those who dwell by rivers or on the seashore. And from this calamity
[243] the Nile, who is our never-failing saviour, delivers and preserves us.
[244] When, on the other hand, the gods purge the earth with a deluge of water,
[245] the survivors in your country are herdsmen and shepherds who dwell on the
[246] mountains, but those